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Samuel Adams was right on, and today our leaders have sold out the nation to the Marxists and corporatists which in turn make them nazi fascists, the merging of state and corporations. all of them are Whores sucking from each other. The laws must be changed or amended that no corporation should be allowed to lobby our officials for any reason, and there should be a law that no retiring or outgoing political moron be a lobbyist at all.
They wouldn’t obey it even if it was a Law ! There are plenty of laws all ready passed and the they violate most of them every day but especially in commiting “Treason” !
Have you seen anyone charged with that lately ? I saw a stat on laws passed by Congress in 2011 or 2013 for a total over 80,000 ! / The result of this is the average American Citizen commits 3 or more Felonies a day if they walk out of their homes !
If you are a Veteran you are automatically labeled a potential terrorist and then if you belong to anything that goes against what the elite don’t like, they add stars to your
name as a real bad ass ! I guess that makes me a Soverign Citizen Extremist. Oh well !
There is move to call for an Article 5 convention of the states to make much needed changes regarding our Constitution. I lean in favor simple because one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. With that said it seems to me what we need is more teeth in the Constitution to hold elected officials and SCOTUS to account.
While this are just basic ideas, for starters EVERY elected official needs to be subject to a recall vote and if they were to leave office prior to that event a new election must be held shortly.
Second, states and citizens should have the ability to amend the Constitution and if necessary over rule errant decisions by elected officials and courts.
Third, states must be able to once again select Senators rather than having elected by popular vote. Sates now find themselves without a voice in the very institution they created.
Fourth, violations of Constitutional right by any government official are punishable for imprisonment as well as subjecting the violator to suits by those who’s rights have been violated personally and NOT as a government official.
For my part the Constitution is a very good framework but lacks accountability, recourse, and punishment when violated.
And what makes you think if they won’t obey the Constitution now, that they are going to obey the new changes?
I have asked that question of all the Article V convention supporters and none have answered me. They are trolls trying to persuade people to support a convention for the sole purpose to nullifying the thing they purported to want to change.
Lee as stated to another post, it is and remains the people who must in the end enforce the document. So the question is how do we enforce the document.
Should our only option be to exercise our 2nd Amendment rights or should we seek other peaceful means to redress grievances against government? What I have offered is simply an attempt to provide a means for people and states to control and hold government accountable beyond elections ever 2,4, or 6 years or to depend upon both houses of Congress to actually show some sense of honor which they have often shown they simply do not possess.
Tom my intentions are sincere and I remain fully aware of possible dangers of such a convention. Yet if we continue to hope that somehow someday our politicians will awake and restore stolen property and liberty how much longer do you expect we have to wait? So unless you can offer some expectation of a time frame for such an event, or unless you can offer some other course beyond more waiting and the eventual wholesale bloodshed that is sure to follow, won’t you at least offer some constructive input regarding a convention?
An Article V convention would devolve into another politician power grab. Why would you expect the people who stole our Liberty to suddenly give it back?
David men being men, you have a point that cannot be denied. Even before, during, and after the last one there has been nonstop discussion, bickering, and power grabs. As you are no doubt aware the last major dispute over run away abuse cost over 600,000 lives. Isn’t it worth the effort to try and avoid a repeat?
Your question as to why I, or anyone else, would expect those who stole our liberty to suddenly return it is exactly my point, they will not do it. That being a given the question is by what means shall we seek to regain that which has been stolen. If we seek a Convention of the states as a way to avoid more bloodshed then we need everyone to begin to take part in the discussion as to how, when, where, and what will be discussed as safe guards against abuse. Keep in mind this is not a Convention of the Federal government it is one of the States.
The bottom line is that either this works and we avoid the abyss or we step over into it and may the Almighty hand of God bless our efforts either way.
Tom Angle’s reply below mirrors my sentiment. We have no founding fathers grounded in the Word of God to lead us.
If our nation had Sacred honor, we would not have to ask these questions or be subjects of tyrants.
David that is my prayer, restoration. While I have NO faith in the Federal government to give up it’s ill gotten gains I still have a little hope that the States, who are much closer to the people, may yet avoid what is to come if we fail at this attempt.
Prayerful considering and appeals for Divine guidance are a necessity. He is the source of honor, courage, wisdom, and without Him our labors are in vain.
You state: “For my part the Constitution is a very good framework but lacks accountability, recourse, and punishment when violated.”. Can you tell me the intent of the 2nd Amendment. Also can you tell me who will enforce the changes? I rather have a fight than give what is left of our freedoms away at some convention.
I should think the intent of the 2nd Amendment is as clear as Jefferson’s assertion that the tree of liberty needs to watered from time to time yet isn’t it worth the effort to avoid such actions? The necessity of the 2nd Amendment is without question but that in no way rejects possible attempts to seek more peaceful means to hold officials and government accountable.
My point was and remains efforts to avoid what will follow is such attempts fail. If such efforts go unblessed then my God bless the efforts who those who reject tyranny by whatever means necessary, for there is no certainty of outcome in such a contest but the death and carnage that will most certainly follow.
As for who will enforce the changes, as always it is the people. My hope is that by providing mechanisms for the people and the states to reign in the abuses we might yet avoid the consequences of not doing so.
Now, while I will, if necessary join you in a battle against tyranny but I would ask that you also prayerfully considering exploring efforts to avoid it, if at all possible.
So if the People will not do it now, why would they do it with a new Constitution? The only thing that a convention will do is remove the legality of the People standing up.
I am courious, what part of the Constitution would you like to change? Also what part needs more teeth?
“So if the people will not do it now,…” By what means CAN they do it now? That is the point of my post, to offer avenues so that people, besides elections and revolt have a means to such an end.
As for the second part it should be clear from my other posts on the subject. So while I have my ideas about which parts need to be addressed it seems to me it isn’t about what I want but rather what “we the people want” and right now we have very, very limited options by which to make changes that are more reflective of those desires.
An example may be abortion and the rather absurd “finding” by SCTOUS that such a “right” exists in the Constitution. At this point the States nor the people have little chance of overriding that travesty. If it was possible for people to either lobby their State governments for a change and or also by means of State referendum by direct vote of the people of each state, we could have an opportunity to change these types of power grabs by the courts. It should still be 2/3 in order to be ratified but a least we would have options beyond the self serving cowards in Congress.
Lastly and once again, it is the states that will call the convention and it will be the states that must ratify the suggestions that may come from a Convention. Also, has the fact we have not had a Convention stopped government from stealing and suppressing our liberties?
Folks, we all ready have aperfect document called the U.S. Constitution” and we do not need to change it at all ! What we “MUST” do is demand our government adhere to it by the letter of each paragraph ! Failure on their part to do that will result in their removal from office and/or being physically removed from office by force if no other alternative is available ! States can “Nullify” a law, “Executive Order”, etc under the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution !
Let’s use this as the “BEST” tool to combat a rogue govermnment, not by changing the U.S. Constitution with the possibility of making matters even worse !
Don can you find no need of other mechanisms that shall provide avenues for the States and or the people to address abuses by the Federal government beyond what you have listed?
The People need to stand up and say no more. Any government does only what the people allow them to do. It is that simple. Men need to be men, gather together, say no more and mean it. It was done in Nevada and it worked. There is not need for any changes to the Constitution, maybe other than repeal a couple Amendments and strike those off the that where never legally ratified.
Tom I agree wholeheartedly people need to, MUST, stand up. The idea behind my suggestions is to provide them more opportunities to do so.
The founders understood the original document was imperfect and provided only 2 ways, beyond armed revolt, to address abuses. We have seen that the vast majority of those in Congress have no stomach for making the necessary changes and that leaves only an Article 5 convention. I remain open to other options at this point and if anyone is aware of another avenue please present it.
We have elections, courts, peaceful demonstrations, plain ignoring the illegal acts and armed revolt. So what other ways would you like to see included? I am at a loss of what other ways are needed. What is needed is for the People to care enough to stand up.
Sadly, the states are all essentially reduced to being lackeys of Fed.Gov by way of the purse-strings, and widespread corruption. At this point, the only course to restoration will be direct action by citizens, using force where necessary, to remove those who have violated their oaths of office. The sad fact is that things will get much worse before the necessary ‘critical mass’ of good people awake and accept this painful fact.
Our Founding Fathers knew and stated as much -- “Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”
It is near, even at the gates; and the Man of Lawlessness shall soon be revealed.
WE HAVE BEEN WARNED
LT…. I suggest the States no longer exist. What we now have are Federally occupied districts who are only allowed to offer suggestions to the masters in D.C.. Sates by their nature are sovereign and what exists now hold no power to assert it.
I suspect you and others here may be correct and the abyss is unavoidable but isn’t it worth the effort to see if it is still possible to avoid it? If we cross over what will follow will not be as pleasant as the efforts of 1776.
So what would you like to see added to or removed from the Constitution? Right now We have all the legal and moral rights We need to enforce the Constitution. Once a convention happens and the is flooded with liberty hating people, We will loose our legal right and as a Christian (we are to obey the laws of our country as long as they do not contradict God’s laws), our moral right as well.
Restated again….the ONLY items I would like to see added at a Convention are the ones I have already specified. The intent is to make the Federal government MORE accountable to the States and the people. These will neither add nor detract from existing natural rights but will afford an opportunity to protect them in the case of run away politicians and courts.
In another post I used the Roe v Wade decision as an example of usurpation by the courts which we have been unable to address with the means now offered. There are countless others from Murry v Culrett to Kelo v the City of New London to Brown v The Board of Education and on and on the list of usurpation is undeniable and any means to address them, beyond begging the courts to change the minds, is only offset by the possibility of begging Congress to offer and Amendment. History has taught we need other mechanisms to address the abuses.
I agree with you that we have the moral right but yet we lack the means. That is what I seek to address and remedy.
And yet again, whatever were to come out of a Convention would need to be ratified by the States. Otherwise any changes offered would be moot.
The Supreme Court judges only server in good behavior. They can be removed if they overstep their bounds.
We do not lack the means for change. We have all the means but lack the desire to be free.
Yes the amendments have to be ratified by the corrupt states. How hard is it to get them to ratify corrupt amendments?
I am still confused you state “History has taught we need other mechanisms to address the abuses.” but yet explain what the mechanisms are. It seems to me that you are hiding your true intentions since it is not that hard to explain what you would like to have added to the Constitution.
Mark:The Constitution “As Is” must be left alone as much as possible with the possible exception of the “Birth Right” issue. I have read a lot about the dangers of calling a Convention of the States and the possibility of getting a couple of “Rogue” representatives in the mix who use the opportunity to create severe damage and make matters even worse. I would support a convention of the states only if the representatives had set goals of one of two things !
Everyone thinks we must change things through a Convention of the states when it could be the most dangerous thing to do without alot of careful thought.
We have “Recall” authority right now in each state and we have the 10th Amendment of the Constitution in place all ready allowing each state “Nullification” rights and authority.
Last but not least, we collect money for them on a daily basis and that by itself is a leverage tool if the state legislatures were to withhold funds to force compliance !
To make a long story short, we have plenty of options besides a Convention of the States to get what we want done and let’s use them as soon as possible.
Don..”The Consitution ‘As Is’ must be left alone as much as possible…” That is why I am ONLY suggesting making changes that allow for MORE accountability to the States and to the people. Any other change must be made AFTER a convention of the states by the States and the people themselves.
As for having “recall” authority please direct me to it. I can find no way peaceful means to recall a Congressmen, Senators, Presidents, or member of SCOTUS beyond impeachment which of course “we the people” have no direct way to perform the deed. If I missed it please point it out.
I agree with the 10th Amendment but the Federal courts refuse to recognize it and the Federal Districts, formerly known as States, appear to be all but unwilling to exercise it. When they do the efforts are batted down by the Federal courts who are intent upon making sure the districts do not get out of hand thereby maintaining their power and the power of the rest of the Federal government.
Lastly please elaborate on “we collect the money for them on a daily basis.” It is my understanding that employers collect the payroll taxes and are personally liable if they are not turned over on a timely basis. This would be true of all other forced to be revenue agents for the government. Then we also have the fact the Federal government can simply call up the Fed and get any amount of money they might need or want to do as they please. I have ideas on how to reign in this abuse but that must be left until after the Convention.
Reply to Mark: The States have the recall ability of their elected representatives by putting together a petition to their respective state legislatures ! I believe it takes 30K-50K signatures to be submitted to the state legislatures for it to be considered and then the Senators and Congressmen would effectively be fired by their respective states and new elections would be held in each state to replace the removed representatives.
Removal of the President is done by the “Impeachment” process from Congress for not doing his job, criminal violations of laws and “Treason”. I believe 2/3rd of the Congress has to agree on this to get it done also. Again, there are all ready checks & balances in the Constitution to take care of all of this but they choose not to enforce it and comply with it !
Thinking you will get them to change with a Convention of the States instead of using existing methods to effect the necessary changes is dreaming ! It won’t happen and is far to dangerous to our existing Constitution !
. As for us collecting federal money. Every day, each state collects 18.4 cents per gallon of gasoline and even more on diesel fuel from what I have researched here in North Carolina. “If” the states withheld the transfer of that money alone, it would be a tremendous leverage tool against the federal government to force them to do what they should do.
I am sure the states collect other money for the feds but the gasoline taxes collected X 50 States alone is a tremendous amount and would seriously hurt the coffers of the feds !
That is what I believe to be the best route to get things done short of a armed revolution forcing them out of power and hanging them or shooting them for their crimes !
Don…I remain aware that sitting members of both houses of Congress can be removed by their fellow members given cause, but have never run across a provision that the citizens of a state can remove them. Please provide a link explaining the process you have mentioned.
If impeachment were a viable option isn’t MORE than likely Obama would have already been impeached by the House and removed from office by the Senate? For my part the fact he has not been impeached and removed SCREAMS of the need for some other type of avenue to be available. I never said the founders provide no checks or balances only that at this time in our history and blame it on whatever you like, there are not enough. The Congress, the President, and SCOTUS show little or not interest in protecting and defending the Constitution and as expressed, it is my contention “we the people” need a way around them to do the job they refuse to do.
If the Federal government can put the tax paying citizens of this country $18,1000,000,000.00 in debt and continue to print and or barrow roughly 42 cents out of every dollar do you really think the states can sway the beast with 18.4 center per gallon? Don’t get me wrong, I would love to see it happen and fully support any such effort but realistically what are the odds it will have the effect you suggest?
Prosecuting the criminals in government is music to my ears but there is little if any chance of that happening since nearly to a man they are in on the fix. My offerings again are meant to avoid a bloody conflict yet provide a means to effect the changes we desire.
Don in the end we may agree to disagree on the notion and goals of a Convention of States and I just want to state clearly I admire the courage and commitment expressed in your posts. Lord knows in this day and age it is more true than ever….We must hang together, gentlemen…else, we shall most assuredly hang separately.”
Tom Angle….”The Supreme Court judges only server in good behavior. They can be removed if they overstep their bounds.
We do not lack the means for change. We have all the means but lack the desire to be free.
Yes the amendments have to be ratified by the corrupt states. How hard is it to get them to ratify corrupt amendments?
I am still confused you state “History has taught we need other mechanisms to address the abuses.” but yet explain what the mechanisms are. It seems to me that you are hiding your true intentions since it is not that hard to explain what you would like to have added to the Constitution.”
Tom..if Rove v Wade and other decisions which are in effect making law by the court, kowing such actions are forbidden under the Constitution, yet none were impeached for that and so many other offenses, can you honestly still claim the system works? If the standard for change has gotten so high it cannot be reached of what good is the standard? Should the number 3%, as in the claimed 3% who actively participated in the American Revolution, be a better standard? While I won’t say we should allow such changes with 3% I point it out to show that history demonstrates it may be a bit optimistic to expect 60 or 70% of the country to rise up and insist upon the much needed changes. This is especially true considering the MASSIVE influx of third world immigrants which will further divide the will of the people and make the task, which now appears to be all but impossible, most certainly impossible.
Corrupt amendments? Of which ones do you speak? The ones that present the most problems are the ones that stem from the aftermath of the war for Southern independence. There are others to be sure but my suggestions would make it easier for the people to make the changes that better represent THEIR will. Should we not make the effort to decentralize the power that concentrated in Washington?
Certainly we are dealing with humans and humans are prone to mistakes but it seems to me that the more opportunity for the people to be involved and effect the changes they would prefer, the more likely they will be involved in the process. Far to many have come to the conclusion, and I am in complete understanding of the sentiment, that “we the people” cannot make the changes and therefore fall away from the process. It is my prayer that given the opportunity the people will seize it and take back what rightfully belongs to them and NOT to government.
The mechanisms I have suggested have been mentioned in my previous post and are in no way hidden nor do they contain any intended or unintended deceit. I understand and welcome your suspicions for it is right to have them as I myself feel the same way about the effects of a Convention. That is why I would like to see people involved, even those who do not support it for unless we can define the parameters, limits, and goals I myself will oppose it.
So again, my proposed Amendments will allow the people and the States more involvement in controlling the Federal government. First and foremost is a provision to recall sitting members of Congress, in both the House and the Senate. I would also like to see a mechanism beyond impeachment for members of SCOTUS to be removed but would be willing to forgo such power IF the people and or the States can take the power to bring forth Amendments to the Constitution outside of a Convention of the States or begging members of Congress to do so. That coupled with a provision to allow Congress and the States to, by vote, nullify illegal decisions by SCOTUS may serve as the deterrent to the abuses that so often effect the lives, religion, morality, speech, etc. of the people SCOTUS is SUPPOSED to serve. The bar should be the same as passing an Amendment to the Constitution, 2/3s of Congress or the State legislatures.
I have other ideas but if asked in a nutshell my preferences, this would cover the vast majority.
Tom as with Dave…thank you for your input and may the hand of the Almighty guide and bless our efforts.