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Thank you, Wes, for posting this response.
His linkage of the Franklin quote to scripture and the observations of de Tocqueville was well worth the viewing time this afternoon.
It’s worth noting that de Tocqueville wrote “Democracy in America” in 1833, long before the institution of the national Christmas holiday in 1871.
A final note which the video did not make explicit: the corruption evident from changes instituted in the era of Reconstruction can be linked to early secular progressivism which emerged in the northern states between the 1830s and the 1860s.
Absolutely Hans. Thats part 2. I try not to kill everyone with such long vids.
I’m curious … are you saying you are the presenter on the video, or that you provided the video to Wes?
Rabbi Will is the presenter in the video.
Thanks !
These vids are interactive , I see from all your posts you are very knowledgeable about historical information, so If youd like to add your 2 sheckels on some of them that’ll be great.
Thank you for the offer … I learned long ago, during my working career, that I function better in reflection than I do in real-time interaction.
If you would entertain a few off-line questions, I would enjoy a short email exchange. I think David DeGerolamo might be willing to provide you my actual email … see NCRenegade/about … I use a bogus address for postings.
I emailed you the Rabbi’s email.
Not impressed.
i do not believe he is trying to impress us. He also was not asking for a donation.
Many times things are hidden in the music. Hidden for those who cannot hear nor see. This should not surprise us. Who was one of the most beautiful and talented musicians?
i burned many books a few years ago. Books that had no place in His house, nor our house. The relief was noticeable and apparent, to both my wife( my helpmate) and myself. Did you know that both (good and evil) sides burn books?
Acts 19:19 A number of them who had been practicing sorcery brought their incantation books and burned them at a public bonfire. The value of the books was several million …
Mark 7:8
Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men. … “You forsake the commandments of God and you keep the traditions of the sons of men: …
Mark 7:9
He went on to say, “You neatly set aside the command of God to maintain your own tradition.
I listened to the entire message. It was very interesting.
I try to read the Holy Bible everyday. I have done that for over thirty years. As far as my personal salvation goes, I have put my total faith and trust in the saving blood of Jesus, whom I believe is the risen Son of God.
I wish everyone well.
de Tocqueville wrote about the virtue of America in 1833. He would not have been talking about any messianic Jews. This nation was founded mostly by Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists. Zero messianic Jews as they had not yet been invented. Most (not all) in the colonies did not celebrate Christmas because they saw it as a violation of the second commandment. They simply believed that the second commandment teaches us that we have no right to invent ways of religious devotion not instituted in scripture. They believed that Christ changed the day of worship from the last to the first day of the week. I agree with the Anglicans, Presbyterians, and Congregationalists. Proof concerning what they believed here: http://www.freepresbyterian.org/uploads/Larger_Catechism.pdf
And proof here: https://prts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Shorter_Catechism.pdf
The first reading primer used widely in the colonies, The New England Primer taught these same truths to CHILDREN. Proof: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_England_Primer
You will notice in the photo of the primer “to which is added, the assembly’s catechism”. It is referring to the Westminster Assembly’s shorter catechism.
“They believed that Christ changed the day of worship from the last to the first day of the week.”
Hopefully we can discuss?
Is it a day of worship or a day of rest? i do not believe Mashiak changed the day.
mankind changed the day and times.
On March 7, 321, however, Roman Emperor Constantine I issued a civil decree making Sunday a day of rest from labor, stating: All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun.
we are to worship Him everyday, as He leads us. If we follow the Son, He is our Rabbi. He is our leader. The following verse shows what He is leading us towards.
YASHAYAHU (ISAIAH) 66:23-
And it shall be from NEW MOON to NEW MOON and from Shabath to Shabath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” declares YAHWEH.
(pronunciation= Yahuah)
His Name is set-apart from all others.
Lon , while some of the spellings and pronunciation in the posts I can’t agree with I do agree with your point.
I am happy to discuss the change of the day. However, the point of my comments above were not a defense of the position, but to show that the belief was commonly held by the churches at the founding of this country. What Will said in his talk was a common argument of the cults. He quoted de Tocqueville, who said good things about Christianity in the US, then he pointed us to a religion that was not invented until the 1960’s. Then he claims that the Christian religion became flawed shortly after the New Testament. He has to do this because his Messianic Jew religion is not any historical religion. The Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons do the same thing, as well as many others -- really ALL modern cults do this. Before discussing further, I would recommend reading questions 49-52 in the Shorter Catechism linked to above, and questions 107-110 in the Larger. Also read the proof texts given. The catechisms were written by men who knew Hebrew and Greek intimately. As an aside, If you click on the photograph of the New England Primer, you will notice that it says “Printed and sold by B. Franklin” I mention this because I believe that Will might have mentioned B. Franklin in his talk. These things are submitted to show that Will should not use Franklin and de Tocqueville as a defense of his Novel religion, but he should use some historical figure that actually promoted his religion.
I goofed up and gave the wrong question numbers from the Catechisms. If you already read through the questions that I listed, they are the ones that explain why many Christians do not celebrate Christmas, which is a 2nd commandment issue. The questions relating to the 4th commandment ( Remember the Sabbath…)are Shorter: Q 57-62, and the Larger: Q. 115-121. Thanks
i believe these people who first came to America were also trying to escape the reach of the Roman church. were they not?
So as time and things evolved why are we still pursuing this same path? This is when things became inter mingled.
Edict of Milan, proclamation that permanently established religious toleration for Christianity within the Roman Empire. It was the outcome of a political agreement concluded in Mediolanum (modern Milan) between the Roman emperors Constantine I and Licinius in February 313.
I will just mention that I don’t care about the Edict of Milan or the Roman Emperor Constantine. You will notice that neither are referenced in the proof texts of the Catechisms that were used by the Anglicans, Presbyterians or the Congregationalists in the colonies.
Ahh yes look how for the Presbyterians have come in that time. You can be ordained and homosexual. That was the point of the video. How far everyone had gone from righteousness
So all the Jews in the bible who trusted and followed messiah, were they not messianic? Also many of out local Presbyterian churches here in the south met on the last day of the week until the great corruption began. Around the 1830s 40s ish depending on where you were. It’s our requirement to agree with the word of YHVH. Not any religious org.
Great point Rabbi.
When you say “messianic”, do you mean the dictionary definition, or some other novel definition that your religion has come up with? At this point people who are following should get out a dictionary. What you say about local Pres. churches is not true. In the above linked catechism from the year 1648:
Q. 116. What is required in the fourth commandment?
A. The fourth commandment requireth of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the world; which is the Christian sabbath, (622) and in the New Testament called The Lord’s day.
My family participated in one such church. So I know it from experience not an internet post. I did not say all Presbyterian churches did so. But you are illustrating my point about Christianity well. While you are wanting to be right about church history your society and culture are on fire.
@ jeff george…Zero messianic Jews as they had not yet been invented? then what do you call the 12 that Messiah called, Catholics? not! they were as i am a Messianic Jews.According to Acts 6:5 you gentiles are proselytes. THAYER biblical dictionary: G4339 προσήλυτος prosēlutos Thayer Definition: 1) one who has come over from a Gentile religion to Judaism Here are two links to prove the first thanksgiving was the biblical feat of Sukkot “feast of booths” for the gentiles. http://www.bethgoyim.org/video%20TRC/400-499/459%20Its%20your%20choice%20Thanksanicah.html and http://www.bethgoyim.org/video%20TRC/400-499/433%20Its%20personal.html
From say 90AD until 1950, how many Messianic Jews were there ? I’m going with ‘just a very few’ relatively speaking. However as the end of the end times approaches, I would expect there to be a lot more as the times of the Gentiles winds down and God moves His Old Testament people into focus.
iteresting you say HIS old testament people. was not YESHUA THE MESSIAH a Jew? was not all the disciples Jews? Are not they in the NT? all the sunday worshipers are all different forms of being a Catholic’s
I don’t really see what you are saying. Israel was/is His chosen people. The Gentiles certainly weren’t His chosen in the OT Jesus was a Jew ’cause Mary was a Jew. The disciples were Jews. I picked 90AD for my question because that’s around the time John the Beloved wrote Rev. ending the NT. I could be wrong but I think the Jews following Christ kinda went away. Otherwise where were the Jews witnessing about Jesus for centuries til now ? There just didn’t seem to be a whole lot of messianic Jews until fairly recently. Sunday worshippers ? How ’bout people who worship everyday ? I don’t have a problem with Jews wanting to meld their OT practices (picking and choosing which they will do/not do as they realize that 30% of worship in the OT required a Temple and priests) in with their messianic Jewish ideas. Not that anyone needs my permission <(I’m trying to cover all my bases here) . I do have a problem with Jews for Jesus wanting to push OT Jewish worship practices onto Gentiles, since there is much liberty in the Grace of the Epistles.
Will typed: “It’s our requirement to agree with the word of YHVH. Not any religious org.” Do you not realize that you ARE part of a religious organization???? Here is the statement of faith of your religious organization: https://www.bethgoyim.org/BethGoyim-Statement%20of%20our%20Faith.html Who typed that up and when? That is not a rhetorical question. Will, did you help type that up yourself? When? 3 years ago? 10 years ago? Do you think that it is possible that you are just part of some cult? Name one historical person that was part of your religious organization more than 100 years ago. Please let me know who typed up your statement of faith, and when it was created. A couple more honest questions. Are you a modalist? Do you believe that Christ is fully God and that he is one of the 3 persons of the trinity? Have you at any time been a Oneness holyness penticostal? (that last question is just a hunch)
Again you are a perfect representation of Christianity in all its glory.
For once I agree with the rabbi.
Will. I see. I think that I misunderstood what you believed. I am sorry. So, you believe a Messianic Jew is a gentile that becomes adopts the Jewish religion. I thought that it was a Jew that became a Christian. Correct me if I am wrong. BTW, if anyone thinks that I am being too harsh with Will Mccubbins, I want you to know that I would not write what I am writing to him if I didn’t figure he was man enough to take it. He does not seem to me to be a sissy.
The church leaders today are just modern day Pharisees, nothing new under the sun.
It’s the difference between a student and a discipline.
A student aims to do what his master says.
A disciple aims to do what his master does.
A Christian student will say: My master told me not to keep Torah, so I will not keep Torah.
A Messianic student will say: My master told me to keep Torah, so I will keep Torah.
But a disciple will say: My master kept Torah, so I will keep Torah.
A student learns from the writings of his teacher. The commitment is to a certain idea or ideas, not to an entire lifestyle. The lifestyle of his teacher is generally irrelevant, and indeed, ideas are often conceived of as being independent of their creators. To be a student of Christ is to do what He said, but not necessarily, to do what He did.
A disciple seeks to emulate his master in every possible way. Disciples will follow their master, living with them, often for years, until they have become like their master. This commitment is thorough; it involves a complete change in lifestyle, including even the mundane matters, such as eating and dressing like their master. It would be inconceivable that a master would do one thing and yet say another thing. It would be inconceivable that a master would do one thing and yet expect the disciple to do another thing. To be a disciple of Christ is to do what He said and, more so, to do what He did.
Eventually, the disciple would become like his master in all ways. Then that disciple would become a master with disciples of his own, who would imitate him and in so doing imitate his master. This is what Paul meant when he said, ‘’Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1, ESV).’’ And what Christ meant when he said, ‘’Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age (Matthew 28:19-20, ESV).’’ It was meant to be a continuous chain leading all the way back to Christ.
So are you a student of Christ?
Do you only want to be like Him in a few ways?
Or, are you a disciple of Christ?
Do you want to be like Him in all ways?
Men can deceive themselves so easily. Men can turn one truth into a thousand errors. And a thousand, thousand doctrines and denominations! That is one of the reasons why the Word of YHWH came in the flesh. To be the perfect role model. To show us Torah in its fullness. While Torah can be expressed as the Two Greatest Commandments, the Ten Commandments, the 613 Mitzvoth, the Pentateuch, and even the whole Bible, that does not even begin to get at the fullness of it. Torah is the Word of YHWH (Isaiah 2:3). More so, Torah is a reflection of the heart of YHWH (Luke 6:45). Torah is infinite. If a picture is worth a thousand words? Then how many words is a man worth? How many words is the Son of Man worth? ‘’Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (John 21:25, ESV)’’
So will you come to Him like a little child (Matthew 18:3)? To love Him and trust Him and imitate Him?
Excellent! Very well written, You are definitely on the right road.
The Sabbath. Scripture clearly tells us that the day of worship has changed from our Saturday to our Sunday. In Josh 10:12 the sun stood still for almost a whole day making 1day be almost 2days long, which shifted Sunday backward into Saturday. To get a complete day, the sundail of Ahaz went backward 10degrees 2Kings 20:9, making up for the ‘almost’ in Joshua. Just trying to help.
Pathetic!
You never even tho’t about the possibility did you ?
If you’d like to help me, please when you pray remind YHVH that Rabbi will says the shabbat begins at even on the sixth day and continues til even on the seventh day. Please do that every time you pray.
Didn’t do the math huh ? Where did the extra day go ? Scripture clearly says the sun was up for almost 2days. If the 5th day is 2days long then the 6th day is the 7th day.
You didn’t do the math. When it stopped there’s nothing extra. Except time which is only a construct for our benefit. Besides if it changed at that point then Yeshus violated the shabbat. And every Holy day and thus sinned. And if Yeshua sinned. …. well?
Scripture says that one day was almost 2days. I didn’t say it. That sure looks like an extra day to me, as opposed to ‘there’s nothing extra.’ Anywasy the sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27, not for God.
in Hebrew thought the day does not end until the sun sets. so it is still the same day.Gen 1:8 and God called the dome Sky. So there was evening, and there was morning, a second day. CHECKMATE!!!
I kicked over the chessboard. i’ll quote the Scripture just so I’m clear. I think I had Josh 10:12 and it should have been 10:13 ‘So the sun stood stll in the midst of heaven and hasted not to go down about a whole day.’ So the sun rose, finished some part of its day and then stood still for about a whole day then finished the remainder of its trek for that starting day. Somebody noticed it and declared it to be about a whole day in addition to the regular day. Looks like two time periods (yeah, I know how Jews count days) of a day in one day.
It’s a matter of definitions.
1) You can define a day as an exact 24 hour period.
2) You can define a day as one rotation of the earth, which may be more or less than an exact 24 hours.
If you insist on the former, then you are constantly becoming more and more desynchronized. You don’t even need to appeal to supernatural interventions. The rotation of the earth is slowing by about 6 hours every 2740 years according to the paper ”Measurement of the Earth’s rotation: 720 BC to AD 2015” by Stephenson, Morrison, and Hohenkerk published in the Proceedings of the Royal Society A in 2016. This gets strange fast. Do you really want to have dawn at 1:00am?
I’m just tweaking the rabbai. I don’t really care. Rom 14:4-6 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Altho’ as long as you are thinking, how did the ancients get a 360day year, since it would skew out weird very fast. I never found a good answer.
The ancient calendars (Vedic, Mayan, Egyptian, etc) all attest to a 360 day year. That is, until it changed?
”The setting aside of the last five days agrees with the practice which Herodotus ascribes to the Egyptians of considering the five days over the 360 as scarcely belonging to the year, and not placing them in any month. So completely were these five days considered by the Romans to be something extraneous, that the soldier appears to have received pay only for 360 days.” (Calendarium, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, William Smith, 1875)
The suggestion here is that the original year was 360 days, but, at some point, perhaps after Joshua’s long day, the year became 365 days. So the Egyptians not knowing what to do with thee extra 5 days simply appended them to the end of the year.
Also, Paul is probably referring to dies fasti and dies nefasti in Romans 14:4-6.
so then the Christians are then on the second day of the week monday?
No. They meet on the first day of the week, Sunday which is actually Saturday because of the day slippage in Joshua. If you draw it out it makes more sense. Aren’t you a follower of Jesus ? That would kinda make you a Christian too.
Calling him a Christian is on par with calling a black person a nigger.
And the dumpster fire continues…. SMDH…
https://ncrenegade.com/transfer-and-focus-your-anger-where-it-deserves-to-be/
This is all christians know wes. Thats why theres no way to win right now. They only want to disobey even if it means creating an alternate reality to live in.
Well, me not being one of the 6 on this site who have the official and ordained blessing by the Great Rabbi Will, I see it as people throwing their ideas and knowledge back and forth, talking about Scripture and seeing where is goes. There are some really learned comments on here. I have been inspired and taught. But, I didn’t make a video with hypocritical comments and the attempting Judaizing of Christianity, (which Paul warned about.) I didn’t tell everyone they were going to Hell if they didn’t understand the Torah, which evidently the Jews don’t understand since they have been writing opposing commentaries on it for thousands of years. And let’s don’t even get started on the Talmud. Review your video and since you alone are the arbiter of all truth, and the only one close enough to God to know the truth, see if you can find your hypocritical comments. Let he that is without sin and all that.
Why ?
[…] moved an article to trash yesterday because the comment section turned into a dumpster fire, yet again. What is wrong with us? We are […]
I would like to post what all of the Protestant denominations that existed during colonies believed concerning Christian worship on the first day of the week. I will not answer any replies to my post to keep the dumpster fire to a minimum. I’m not even really posting to defend the position, which I do agree with, but simply to let people know why they all believed what they believe. Make sense? The modern church tends to be very uneducated about this type of thing. First, the colonists believed that the keeping one day Holy actually began when God declared it holy when he finished creating the world. Obviously God did not need to rest, but he created it for people. “The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath” (Mark 2:27). Secondly, they believed that the purpose of the Sabbath was to show the proper amount of time to rest from normal work and to spend in public and private worship and good deeds. One day in seven. The Hebrew word Sabbath means “a rest”. The 4th commandment doesn’t actually say which day of the week to keep holy. It says remember a rest day to keep it holy: 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. So there is supposed to be a cycle of 7 days, 6 for work and 1 for rest. The sabbath day is not a magic day that if you get it out of cycle that you are going to hell. In the New Testament, Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week. Before Christ ascended into heaven, he met with the disciples on the first day of the week several times, when they were meeting together. “Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, “Peace be with you.” (John 20:19–20) in the same chapter it says 26 “And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.” Of course Jews included the current day when counting days so this is again on the first day of the week. Christ did this during his 40 days before his ascension. Also the churches are told to take up a collection for the poor on the first day of the week when they were meeting together. The idea of the Lords Day was common enough that when John wrote the Revelation, he wrote that he was “in the spirit on the Lord’s day” with no further explanation. That is why we have always called it the Lord’s day” Those who say that the pope or some other person invented the Lords day obviously do not know that we have the writings of the early church and we know that they met on the first day of the week from the very earliest. There is not a single recorded occurrence of the early church meeting for worship on saturday in the writings of the early church. So the church has been meeting on the Lords day for 2000 years because they believe that Christ changed the day to the day of his Resurrection from the dead. Btw, I learned while visiting Belarus that the Russian Orthodox call the day “resurrection day”. There are many other reasons historic Protestant denominations worship on what the apostle John called the Lord’s day. These are just some of them. Modern Christian churches cannot explain why they meet on the first day of the week because they are not taught. So whether you agree or not, now you know just some of the “why”.