Ponderings

I’d like to thank Tim Smith for being willing to share a dialog with me, and with you. There was an old bit of advice making the rounds when I was growing up, “Don’t discuss politics or religion.” Well, I think most of us active on this site have failed that advice miserably. There’s also another old adage I recall, “Don’t judge a man (person, for the politically sensitive) until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes.”

So I’d like to share a very few of the things I’ve learned.

As a Christian, I had always be told that Pagans were demon possessed, devil worshippers, ‘lost souls’, etc. Personally, I identified metal music, excessive tattoos, the ‘Goth’ look of black lipstick and clothing, skinheads, and use of pentagrams, among other things as ‘Pagan’, but since ‘words mean things’, what’s the actual definition?

Pagan: (from classical Latin pāgānus “rural”, “rustic”, later “civilian”) is a term first used in the fourth century by early Christians for people in the Roman Empire who practiced polytheism, or ethnic religions other than Judaism. (Lately we could add agnostics, atheists, Muslims, and Christians to Judaism).

There are several groups folks call ‘pagan’ these days. We have the Skinheads, White Supremacists, Neo-Nazis, Wiccans, New Agers, Satanists, agnostics, atheists, and finally, those who actually study and attempt to live their lives based on what I call The Old Ways of our Germanic pre-Christian ancestors. Such people identify as Odinists or Asatruars (true to the Gods). I was surprised to learn that there is a sizable minority of the latter in Europe and the United Kingdom, recognized by their respective governments and worshipping openly. So from the list of Pagans mentioned above, one might realize that the term ‘Pagan’ is not all inclusive anymore that the term ‘Christian’ is all inclusive (Baptists to Catholics and everything in between). And if one wants to make an argument that Christianity is different in this regard, I’d remind them that Catholics consider all Protestants ‘lost’, Baptists and Pentecostals pretty much think they’re the only ones to be ‘saved’.

So what is important to the Odinist, the Asatruar, or the one following The Old Ways? There are three cornerstones of belief: the sacredness of nature, reverence for our ancestors, and the Divine within ourselves. Unlike the Abrahamic religions, there are no ‘doctrines of men’ and there is no ‘book’. This is a folkish faith. I hesitate to even call it a religion. It is a way of living. There are Nine Noble Virtues: Courage, Discipline, Fidelity, Honor, Hospitality, Industriousness, Perseverance, Self-Reliance, and Truth. People following this path do not accept the concept of ‘original sin’ and feel no need to be ‘saved’. They live their lives based on the Virtues and take full responsibility for their actions and lack thereof. As the Apostle Paul suggested, “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling’. This is where I come down after much prayer and study – both theological and secular historical. It’s mine so you need not feel threatened by it.

I guess you could say that I follow in the steps of Thomas Jefferson as a deist. I believe there is a Creator of All/Allfather who created the universe with Natural Laws and cycles and then stepped back to allow it to work like a clock. So how do I reconcile that belief with the pantheon of Gods and Goddesses? To minds incapable of grasping the Totality of God, peoples revering their most excellent ancestors as partial/imperfect manifestations of His perfection makes sense. These folks believe the Gods to have been actual humans of great renown. Some followers of The Old Ways believe these Gods to be real deities. Others, like myself, tend to view them as Carl Jung did, as archetypes. Odin sacrificed an eye for wisdom, so I should be likewise be willing to make sacrifices for wisdom, as just one example.

You may ask why I bothered with this post. Your mind is made up. A couple of reasons. First, I wanted you to understand that people following The Old Ways are not evil. They care about traditional values, their families, the good, the beautiful and the true, just like most Christians. Secondly, to remind you that ‘iron sharpens iron’. There is nothing to fear and much to gain with an exchange of ideas. What I’m not attempting to do is evangelize anyone. We each have our own ‘walk’ in this life and I think we all agree that in some way, shape, or form, we will all ultimately be held responsible for that walk. So, for anyone so interested, I’ll offer this email address if you want to amicably discuss any of this in private. I find that such discussion in a public forum tends to lead to defensiveness that negates much of the benefit. The email address is: Ponderings@proton.me. I promise to keep any discussions confidential.

We have a big fight ahead, and since ‘the enemy of my enemy is my friend’, let’s fight together!

    
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Quatermain
Quatermain
1 year ago

 “Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling’. 
Which of course presupposes that one has salvation. Paganism does not / cannot provide it.

Noway2
Noway2
1 year ago
Reply to  Quatermain

Paganism does not / cannot provide it.”
Nor does it require it without the concept of original sin.

tom finley
tom finley
1 year ago
Reply to  Roth Harbard

We all have free will or do we?

Quatermain
Quatermain
1 year ago
Reply to  Roth Harbard

Oh, you will believe it. Oh and stating facts is not berating anyone.

Jeff M
Jeff M
1 year ago

Again, an appeal to socialism. John Foster Dulles promoted the ecumenical church movement after World War 2. The wisdom of God is found by those who enter the narrow gate. Those who preach another way are those who are blind and desire to lead other to their own destruction.

tom finley
tom finley
1 year ago

I try to keep an open mind, I believe everyone has his own individual path to walk. Good verses evil is what it has come down to and it is just that simple, I will not be asking the man in the foxhole who is your God, let us begin to get to work and quit pole vaulting over mouse turds in our differences.

Bigus Macus
Bigus Macus
1 year ago

Lord,
There do I see my father. Lo, there do I see my mother, and my sisters, and my brothers. Lo, there do I see the line of my people, Back to the beginning! Lo, they do call to me. They bid me take my place among them, In the halls of Valhalla! Where the brave may live forever.
Amen.

Rick Ostrander
Rick Ostrander
1 year ago

Heathens have historically been quite tolerant when it comes to respecting others’ beliefs, far more than the Abrahamic monotheists who have regularly murdered man and nature; desecrated holy places and chopped down sacred groves; forced conversions. The list is long and ugly; indigenous peoples everywhere can attest to the ruination of their lives and cultures, largely by Yahwists. Yet there are many more Abrahamists than heathens these days, and we do share many values, and have many enemies in common. We may fight together, but heathens must always remain on the watch for betrayal by those who worship the god of the book.

Louis Jenkins
Louis Jenkins
1 year ago

Even the Devil quotes scripture. I, for one, do not cotton to to the illusion that pagans, satanists, or anti-deists, are or can be our friends. How many times has enemies of our enemies are our friend rose up and bit us in the arse? History shows what happens. God, family, and country is my motto.

Noway2
Noway2
1 year ago

As Roth said, people following this faith don’t believe in original sin or need to be “saved”. This creates a very different dynamic, view, and relationship with our gods as compared to the Abrahamic monotheists and their god. There was a comment in a recent Pagans and Christians Renegade post, “God looks at all of us as filthy detestable rags”. As a follower of the old ways, I don’t share this belief or perception, nor do I understand it. Why would one want to expend energy worshiping an entity that holds you in such low regard?
I would also like to point out that most of the pagans listed above do not believe in the existence of the Abrahamic god and by extension do not believe in the existence of Satan and hence are not Satanists. We do recognize a fundamental duality to the universe, and it is perceptible in numerous ways all around you, but not in the God versus Devil paradigm.
Lastly, I will mention that to us, the mystical tools are not verboten. Instead, one is free to experience the world and experiment with one’s own natural abilities. Intuitive abilities such as, “the sight” and divination are not evil, but rather are gifts bestowed upon us by our creator.

Michael
Michael
1 year ago
Reply to  Noway2

Mild correction sir.

The scripture you misquoted was referring to the Rightness of man compared to God’s standards. Filthy rags reference

Thus the requirements of a blood sacrifice for sin not for a period of time like Judaism but for eternity by the Lamb of God.

God must value your soul pretty highly to accept a sadistic criminals death at the behest of a howling mob to the Roman Governor of Israel.

Personally as long as your an honorable good neighbor I don’t worry about your personal beliefs UNLESS they are hazardous to innocents and or me and mine.
I know too much about Islam and sadly Judaism to find them trustworthy neighbors. BOTH religions have a “right” in their religion to lie to infidels/goyum as well as treat them as subhuman.

Noway2
Noway2
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael

“Personally as long as your an honorable good neighbor I don’t worry about your personal beliefs UNLESS they are hazardous to innocents and or me and mine.”
I can respect that. I am a follower of the old ways, with an emphasis on the Germanic ways of my ancestors. I suspect we have more in common than not:
I believe in the fundamental structure of the family unit as the corner stone of a strong society. I also realize the importance of community when it comes to raising children.
I believe in supporting my local community and my neighbors. We are not an island.
I believe in self sufficiency and resiliency. One of the key parts of a strong community is not being a burden.
I believe in minimal govt., and would prefer to dispense with having a State all together.
I believe there is too much regulation and govt. is involved where it should not be, everything from food and drugs to education.
I believe the spy apparatus is out if control.
I believe the US is on an unsustainable economic path that will bring ruin to us all.
I think “leftists” have managed to take control of too much of the hovering structure, e.g. school boards, the legal (I won’t say justice) system system, etc and weaponized them and are trying to indoctrinate children.
If you were my neighbor, I would do everything in my power to help you, because not only is it the right thing, but we’re stronger together. We might have different views of God, and even disagree on certain social issues (getting govt involved and taking sides is a lose lose) but I too want a safe, happy, healthy community that is sustainable and respects everyone’s rights.

Last edited 1 year ago by Noway2
Carpenter
Carpenter
1 year ago

It would behoove you to take the time and read if you’d like to know how Paganism crept into Christianity. Turn the pages of Alexander Hislop’s “The Two Babylon’s”. The mother of harlots has her hands in many things. She’s not who she pretends to be. As for myself I’m a KJV Bible Believer. It’s your togetherness Lucifer desires.
https://www.biblebelievers.com/babylon/

Carpenter
Carpenter
1 year ago
Reply to  Roth Harbard

I believe you are mistaken. True Christianity adopted pagan rituals, for it was Constantine, a Roman. Rome never relinquished its power or authority. It transferred from Caesar to the “Holyfather”, aka the Pope. Why don’t you look up the history of that harlot???? Not Christian whatsoever about the RCC. Your water downed version bibles that you read come from her poisonous manuscripts found in the trash.

James
James
1 year ago

Excellent article I will plan to share with many,thanks!

Martha
Martha
1 year ago

It’s Not that they’re Evil per se, but unless you claim Jesus as Savior & Lord, you still belong to Satan. Jesus said so in Mt. 12:30 that if you are Not with HIM, you are against HIM. There’s only 2 places we can end up: Heaven or Hell. Therefore, in Christ you have the Heart & mind of Christ; Not in Christ, you are dead and still in the flesh.

Noway2
Noway2
1 year ago
Reply to  Martha

How can one belong to Satan if they do not believe that Satan exists or for that matter even believe in the God / Satan paradigm. If one doesn’t believe in the concept of Heavan and Hell, how are they going to wind up in either place? If one doesn’t believe in the concept of original sin and damnation, why would they claim your Jesus as their savior?
Sorry, but quoting your scripture does not prove your scripture, either.

Steiner
Steiner
1 year ago
Reply to  Noway2

“How can one belong to Satan if they do not believe that Satan exists or for that matter even believe in the God / Satan paradigm. If one doesn’t believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell, how are they going to wind up in either place?”
Your comment makes it sound like belief creates reality. Just because you don’t believe in something does not make it not exist and vice versa. Truth either is or is not and cannot cease to exist just because it is not believed. “I can’t be electrocuted because I don’t believe in live 480VAC” will not save me. The interesting thing about that type belief is you have to die to prove/disprove it.
This comment has nothing to do with whom I would work with/help in trying times. It strictly about belief calling things into reality.

Michael
Michael
1 year ago
Reply to  Steiner

Stiner since the thread was about pagans and Christians working together to fight the Abundant Evil destroying America…

Why do you nitpick about beliefs?

I will fight along side honorable trusted friends regardless of their personal beliefs as long as they don’t push them on me and mine.

Michael
Michael
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael

After all Stiner I did my 20+ years working with and fighting beside many Non Christian.

What is your nitpicking point here?

Did YOU go into combat only with Christians that Agreed with YOUR Theology?

Steiner
Steiner
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael

Lighten up Francis. RE-READ MY LAST SENTENCE. I’ll enter it again -- RE-READ MY LAST SENTENCE.

Steiner
Steiner
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael

I don’t see your same comment under Noway2’s comment. Did it get deleted ? Did you see this at the end of my comment ?
This comment has nothing to do with whom I would work with/help in trying times. It strictly about belief calling things into reality.”

Michael
Michael
1 year ago
Reply to  Steiner

So Stiner given your theological comment Would you fight beside someone that is “of the Devil”.

You said his beliefs that he wasn’t “of the devil” was invalid. I. E. False, Thus He was “of the devil”.

That is Lighten up Francis question.

Your turn to dance.

Steiner
Steiner
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit is it ? Re-re-re-read my comment and answer your own question. And while you’re at it, snot with all the others who posted off-topic. A switch to decaf may help. Chill dude.

Last edited 1 year ago by Steiner
Michael
Michael
1 year ago
Reply to  Steiner

Deflect and insult So Aesop.

Answer the question.

DWEEZIL THE WEASEL
DWEEZIL THE WEASEL
1 year ago

The illustration above says it all. We are at the tipping point. “But this same day must end that the work the Ides of March has begun. And whether we shall meet again, I know not. Therefore, our everlasting farewell take. Forever and forever farewell. If we do meet again, we shall smile. If not, this parting was well made.” H/T to Wiliam Shakespeare and Gene Hackman in the movie UNCOMMON VALOR. Stay vigilant, focus, prepped, and silent. Bleib ubrig.

a follower, working on it.
a follower, working on it.
1 year ago

a few thoughts.
i believe many of us already are standing together and fighting evil.
i do not need to check your ‘mark’ before we enter the battlefield if it comes to that.
People expose who they are.
People change and people are changed by what is in them. So as individuals ask yourselves what is in me?
As for me, He is come in the flesh.
It is said, “He that is in you is greater than he that is in the world. Also, i am reminded of Acts 17: 24-
And in John other sheep are spoken about, other sheep that are not of this fold but will be gathered along the way. The journey is not over for many of us or those around us. i suggest we use patience and faith as these things run their course. Perhaps there is time for many of us to yet grow?

Last edited 1 year ago by a follower, working on it.
tom finley
tom finley
1 year ago

The bill of rights 1st. amendment, freedom of religion.

Michael
Michael
1 year ago
Reply to  tom finley

Exactly, Freedom OF Religion, NOT as the so “Tolerant ” Left try to push Freedom FROM Religion ” unless of course Islam and such.

Witness the current “mostly peaceful ” protests for details. Religion of Peace and we will shout down, beat down and kill you for disagreeing with us.

tom finley
tom finley
1 year ago
Reply to  Michael

Exactly correct.